How important is good musicianship for you in deciding whether you like a band? For me it isn't remotely important, I don't think heavy metal is about showing off how technically talented you are, it's about attitude, feeling, atmosphere and good songwriting. This is why in my opinion bands like Celtic Frost, Sodom, Venom etc. CRUSH more "talented" and polished acts like Testament etc. (not to mention Biomechanical and their odious ilk).

I can certainly appreciate a well-crafted guitar solo, but that is mainly based on mood and melody, not on being an expert shredder. Equally if a band has a shit hot drummer or an evidently gifted vocalist then I can enjoy it sometimes, but if the band's overall sound is lifeless then it's still a thumbs down. It's all about what fits the music, e.g. Slayer solos are great in my opinion - not for their "musicianship" but because they are perfect within the band, that's what heavy metal is about for me.

Its not vital to me. But it can be important cos you can use that knowledge to really excell in writing. Just look at Chuck Schuldiner. During his later albums (especially the Control Denied album), hes just flawless and i think it really adds to his song writing.

Guitar solos arent my turn on though. Its all about the meaty riff.

Perhaps, although to take Death as an example, the manic early albums do a lot more for me than the experimental later output - much more atmosphere and raw energy!

I agree fully, because my favourite Death albums are the first three. But the feeling thats put into the ones after is just amazing.

Musicianship as in songwriting ability or knowledge of music... or how good someone is at playing? Or all three?

I have differing opinions depending on which one

I touched on this during the new metallica album thread a while back. To me, kirk was a better guitarist on the first 2 albums. His soloing on tracks like "hit the lights", "jump in the fire" and "fade to black" are way beter than the stuff he put out on later albums, even though by then he was a student of satriani and he was more technically proficient. Those early solos had feel and flow. Not being a musician myself is an advantage here, because i hear the solo without having to analize the technical merit of it.

Technicality for its own sake very seldom works, as listenability is often sacrificed for that complexity. To make the 2 work can be a very hard thing to do.

i hate how all these questions involve, ''either have this and dont have that, either has that and dont have this'', cause i want fucking both!

Musicianship is really important for me because it's far less subjective than song writing. In my opinion, a band ought to be able to play their chosen style with relative ease. It means the band are likely to sound good both live and on record. This applies to any band, whether they play Country or Metal.

Talking about Metal specifically, I think it's a crock of shit to exuse incompetant musicianship and talk about attitude and emotion because plenty of bands incorporate both. Slayer's music is supposed to be aggressive, fine. That, however, shouldn't exuse Kerry King and Jeff Hanneman from being crap guitarists. Alex Skolnick has a few solos to his name that, obviously, incorporate great musicianship but also attitude and emotion. King and Hanneman, however, have none. In short, bum notes and playing out of time shouldn't be an integral part of aggressive music. With bands like Sepultura and Sodom, however, they are.

In which case you totally miss my point.

What, that it's OK to exuse people who can't play their instruments if their band is perceived to be about aggression, feeling and etc? If music is supposed to be aggressive and moody, great. I just can't listen to it if it sounds like shit, though.

I don't mean if they literally can't play their instruments at all, but I mean they don't have to showcase any great technical wizardry in order to create great music. There is nothing demanding in the musicianship of AC/DC, and yet they are a great band. If I wanted to witness a virtuoso performance I would probably go to a classical concert - when OTT virtuosity is mixed with heavy metal, it almost invariably produces horrible results.

P.S. Why have you spelled "excuse" wrong twice on one page? .......

Technical wizardy for the sake of it (Malmsteen for example) is not something I enjoy. But musicianship in songwriting is important to me. I still love AC/DC and other bands who know how to rock my socks off, but I'll also very much appreciate a band who know something about music and how to write an amazing song. Diagonal for the love of goodness, Tool and Opeth. You'll find indeed that the kind of prog I enjoy is not the Dream Theater type of prog where everyone just shows off all the time, but the kind where everything is done for a reason (even improv sections have their purposes), the songs are well crafted and the music is brilliant. I'll use Opeth obviously as an example - Mikael Akerfeldt is an amazing guitarist, but you'll never hear him going mad in a solo, his solos are always musically amazing, and the melody and emotion comes first. That's when good musicianship can be used to write amazing songs and guitar parts. And that is a lovely thing indeed.

techincal wizardry for me just makes the music even better, a good shred solo makes me orgasm

Jon's got it perfectly.

James wrote:I don't mean if they literally can't play their instruments at all, but I mean they don't have to showcase any great technical wizardry in order to create great music. There is nothing demanding in the musicianship of AC/DC, and yet they are a great band. If I wanted to witness a virtuoso performance I would probably go to a classical concert - when OTT virtuosity is mixed with heavy metal, it almost invariably produces horrible results.

P.S. Why have you spelled "excuse" wrong twice on one page? .......

In that case, I'm not sure why you cited Testament in your original post. Not all guitar vituosos resort to playing Neoclassical stuff. Alex Skolnick certainly doesn't and a lot of what he plays fits the music well. With regards to AC/DC, a lot of people refer to Angus Young as a 'fretboard wanker'. Whilst what he does isn't technically demanding, it's pretty much the same as what most shredders do, i.e. play solos when it isn't absolutely necessary.

And Firefox no longer checks my spelling. I think it's because I uninstalled a dictionary or something.